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admin

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Re: Did some math and estimating
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2018, 01:22:11 AM »
To stir the pot a little... what if AMP had built-in support for AES67, and didn't need a $1k Dante card?

crazysubguy

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Re: Did some math and estimating
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2018, 02:45:13 AM »
Is it possible?  I would like to add a plug-in server, but the Dante card is more expensive than the rest of the machine.

What about redundancy. Does AES67 allow primary and secondary network connections?

gilnavarro

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Re: Did some math and estimating
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2018, 05:20:01 PM »
I’m confused by the aes67 thing. Wouldn’t that just be a driver on the computer that Amp (or any other audio software would use? How would amp natively support it?

Richard B. Ingraham

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Re: Did some math and estimating
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2018, 05:50:58 PM »
To stir the pot a little... what if AMP had built-in support for AES67, and didn't need a $1k Dante card?

That would be interesting.  It brings that Yamaha TIO set up down to about $4200.  But that is still about 2x as much as my initial outlay for the MOTU AVB gear. 

I'll check in again when I'm likely to pull the trigger.  Which granted, this fall is probably about getting more X Touch gear.
Richard B. Ingraham

Richard B. Ingraham

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Re: Did some math and estimating
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2018, 05:56:13 PM »
Is it possible?  I would like to add a plug-in server, but the Dante card is more expensive than the rest of the machine.

What about redundancy. Does AES67 allow primary and secondary network connections?

Well AMP doesn't host VST plug ins, yet.  So if that's what you're thinking about, it may be a bit down the road.  Of course the AES67 thing is a bit down the road as well I would assume.

With all due respect to Bob, if you want a plug in server to host VST plugs, I would recommend Live Professor.  You could use Dante Virtual Sound card if you're not concerned about latency or get the Dante PCIe card or look into the new RME USB Dante device if you need low latency.

I've used Live Professor on shows all the time.  It works very well.
Richard B. Ingraham

Richard B. Ingraham

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Re: Did some math and estimating
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2018, 06:09:53 PM »
I’m confused by the aes67 thing. Wouldn’t that just be a driver on the computer that Amp (or any other audio software would use? How would amp natively support it?

I assume..   it would be a virtual audio interface for AMP that allows it to talk to hardware that supports AES67.  Since Dante has supported AES67's transport protocol for a while now, that means that most Dante devices could communicate via AES67.

https://audinate.com/resources/videos/role-aes67-audio-networking-and-dante-environment

It basically means AMP wouldn't need a $1K Dante PCIe or USB interface with ASIO drivers.  And it wouldn't be trying to use Dante Virtual Sound card, which from all reports I've read and seen, doesn't really allow low latency enough performance for live mixing. 

Richard B. Ingraham

jlepore

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Re: Did some math and estimating
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2018, 09:43:39 PM »
Correct - DVS is not fast enough to use for live mix, but works great for capturing and recording, which is what I have used it with in conjunction with AMP on a Yamaha CL5/Rio network.

They do have a product, Dante Via, that will allow 16 channels of I/O at low latency (but still not probably at hardware latency levels), but other than for something very small, not sure it would be totally useful.  I always meant to try it out but never remember when I'm near a preamp with my laptop.

crazysubguy

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Re: Did some math and estimating
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2018, 08:11:28 PM »
Well AMP doesn't host VST plug ins, yet.  So if that's what you're thinking about, it may be a bit down the road.  Of course the AES67 thing is a bit down the road as well I would assume.

With all due respect to Bob, if you want a plug in server to host VST plugs, I would recommend Live Professor.  You could use Dante Virtual Sound card if you're not concerned about latency or get the Dante PCIe card or look into the new RME USB Dante device if you need low latency.

I've used Live Professor on shows all the time.  It works very well.

Live Professor was what I had in mind, but I would be happy not to have to factor in a $1000 Dante card per computer.  I would use Live Professor for live events which means Dante card rather than the virtual driver.  Eventually, I would like to have a primary and secondary Amp Host and the same for Live Professor with automatic failover.  Waves has a failover process for their plug in processor, but it is not seamless.   There is a period of time during which there is no sound if the system actually fails over.  In the above scenario, 4 computers means about $4000 in Dante cards, with AES 67, about $0 in cards.

Richard B. Ingraham

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Re: Did some math and estimating
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2018, 09:21:28 PM »
Correct - DVS is not fast enough to use for live mix, but works great for capturing and recording, which is what I have used it with in conjunction with AMP on a Yamaha CL5/Rio network.

They do have a product, Dante Via, that will allow 16 channels of I/O at low latency (but still not probably at hardware latency levels), but other than for something very small, not sure it would be totally useful.  I always meant to try it out but never remember when I'm near a preamp with my laptop.

I will have to tinker with VIA at some point.  My understanding was that had even higher latency than DVS.  But maybe I have it backwards.

VIA is limited to 16 channels of I/O to software.  But it can link up to 32 I/O from a hardware audio interface to a Dante Network.  For some smaller shows that could be useful to essentially take a couple of computers with mid sized audio interfaces and turn them into a digital snake system.

And then link that to AMP via DVS or AES67 perhaps.
Richard B. Ingraham

Richard B. Ingraham

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Re: Did some math and estimating
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2018, 09:38:13 PM »


Live Professor was what I had in mind, but I would be happy not to have to factor in a $1000 Dante card per computer.  I would use Live Professor for live events which means Dante card rather than the virtual driver.  Eventually, I would like to have a primary and secondary Amp Host and the same for Live Professor with automatic failover.  Waves has a failover process for their plug in processor, but it is not seamless.   There is a period of time during which there is no sound if the system actually fails over.  In the above scenario, 4 computers means about $4000 in Dante cards, with AES 67, about $0 in cards.

Well what you're describing would only work if Live Professor also supported AES67 directly.  I would doubt that is a priority for them. 

Dante DVS works fine as a link to Live Professor if you're not trying to do individual channel processing.  i.e. Comps or Gates or EQ for channels rather than using what is built into AMP of your console.  Things like reverb, delay and even things like soft synths or amp emulation could likely get low enough latency that it would work fine. 

What you're asking for with all that redundancy would be extremely difficult.  The easiest way would likely be used to use Dante Controller to swap from one computer to another.  It would be very hard to keep all that audio in sync to make a seamless switch over.  We do it a lot in theatre but only for playback.  Just doing playback redundancy alone is a real basket of worms, particularly with Dante.  Add in live mixing... well that just makes my head hurt.  If you figure out a way I would love to hear about it.

Richard B. Ingraham

admin

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Re: Did some math and estimating
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2018, 05:26:33 AM »
I was able to hack a DVS into giving me around 6-7ms of round-trip latency, which is about half of the normal value, but not quite certain it is completely stable.

We are evaluating lots of stuff right now - just need more time to devote to more r and d.

Bob

jlepore

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Re: Did some math and estimating
« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2018, 08:25:39 PM »
That's really interesting. I usually only use DVS for recording but have always thought it would be an emergency resource if the desk died.  With better latency, it would be an even better option.

crazysubguy

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Re: Did some math and estimating
« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2018, 02:07:11 AM »
1.  I had some free time tonight and was looking at AES67 virtual drivers.   I noticed there are several advertising linux virtual sound drivers.  like this one: www.telosalliance.com/Axia/Axia-IP-Audio-Driver .   Latency for the AES67  virtual drivers seemed to be on the order of 48 samples (2.2 ms round trip?) which, in advertising at least, seems to be better than DVS.

2.  I currently have a windows 7 pc with amp host and a windows 10 pc with amp gui. Windows 10 is mostly for the improved multi touch monitor support.  Both computers took hours of customization of settings and services to get setup.  The Win 10 computer needs another look because I missed turning off the option that allows updates from alternate locations. Like another fully updated Win 10 laptop on the audio network that I connected as a wireless remote.  The Win 10 PC evidently updated from the laptop even though I have never connected it to the internet since the initial install, updates, and settings/services configuration.

3.  Is there any possibility of a linux amphost?  I know Dante hardware drivers are hard to come by, but if AES support was built in (or used one of the linux virtual drivers), the host would still be usable with other Dante hardware. Big advantage would be the complete control of the OS.  Bob could also offer a complete turnkey package that didn't rely on fickle windows updates that destroy the ideal setup.

4. Of course there may be other issues:
     a. not many linux plugins (but the number is growing) for future VST support (I'm not convinced I need that though -
         I'm more interested in a rock-solid host and would rather run VST plugins somewhere else);
     b. would other formats be supported in the linux version?  AVB?
     c. more overhead supporting linux, windows, apple?

Richard B. Ingraham

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Re: Did some math and estimating
« Reply #28 on: September 14, 2018, 03:01:37 AM »
I don't mean to be negative nor do I speak for Bob in any way, but I hope we don't go down the Linux path.  I know there are advantages but really only for turn key and prosperity solutions.   Linux is what drives at least 2 or 3 of the major sound desks.  But it's not an off the shelf solution.   The sound community has been waiting for years for reasonable,  working audio software and hardware for Linux and few have ever come.  I know there are some, but are any of them really pro level solutions,  expect perhaps RME?

I just don't see it as a viable option.   Making turn key systems just means making AMP another hardware desk and it would require a cost to pay Bob for his time and support.   I see little point in trying to compete in the crowded market.  As we saw with SAC, as soon as reasonably decent cheap hardware desks came along the interest in software mixing dropped.  The X32 and others reduced the need for SAC drastically.   The only markets where software mixing makes sense is those that really need a sophisticated mixer for less money, those that just really love to tinker with computers and those that really need some of the unique advantages of software mixing like lots of clients talking to a single host or scalability or in the case of AMP a very customizable UI.  Too name a few.

But lots of folks just don't need that or if they do they can afford the big buck consoles.

Just saying that I don't think that holds a lot of promise.  And I don't think there is much profit to be had in turn key AMP solutions.   Having said that, I have been thinking about providing that service myself, so maybe I'll find out.  Ha.

Just my opinion.
Richard B. Ingraham

crazysubguy

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Re: Did some math and estimating
« Reply #29 on: September 14, 2018, 04:05:28 AM »
I enjoy the discussion that happens on this forum.  Since the forum seems to be having a few days of fewer posts, I thought I would ask some questions related to several of the previous posts along with the linux question.

I see the use of case of those who are looking for a sophisticated mixer for less money and those who like to tinker with computers (both me) as the market for a linux version.  I agree there is not much linux pro audio computer sound hardware support, but both AES67 and AVB support could be included in the amp host software.  AES67 is now compatible with DANTE hardware (i.e. Yamaha TIO 1608) as well.  The only hardware then needed for the host PC would be a quality NIC.  Those are well supported by and for linux. 

There are many ways to go about a linux version, but one that would be fairly simple, is to develop using a specific distro (Arch linux maybe with the real time patch, or Ubuntu Server LTS).  Only the amp host executable would need to be distributed, but there could be a specific forum thread or sticky that states the tested linux distro and base configuration, and the rest would be up to the user. I've set up dozens of linux (and Windows) systems and that would be infinitely easier then what I had to do to get Windows 7 (or 10) configured. Most linux OS installs are pretty close to a few questions like name, password, timezone, and then click install.  You could even do completely without a screen.   The amp host control window is so simple that a remote log in terminal console with numeric list of options would allow a setup with no video overhead and the associated interrupts (probably could do this part in the windows version as well). On a related note, it would also be nice if the GUI had a window that remotely displayed and controlled the host regardless of OS.

If new versions of Windows allowed control of the OS like 7 and earlier, then I would be less of a proponent for a linux amp host version.  But if Windows keeps going in the current direction with less and less user control, will Ampmix even be able to get the right priority in a future Windows update or version?

Just my 2 cents.  If a linux version never happens, I will keep using the Windows version.

Good luck with your potential turnkey service.  I'm all for anything that promotes and furthers AMP and the R&D behind it.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 04:24:46 AM by crazysubguy »