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Author Topic: Did some math and estimating  (Read 2612 times)

RBIngraham

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Did some math and estimating
« on: June 21, 2018, 03:32:21 PM »

So I did some math and estimates and even with the requirement of a PCIe Dante card, a Yamaha TIO based system is more economical than a MOTU AVB system, even after accounting for the bit more wasted I/O of the TIO based system.

Some of this is because I was pricing B16 stage boxes for the orchestra pit inputs, but that requires an AVB switch in the pit as well as at FOH.

The cheapest MOTU AVB option I came up with was $4440.  But that requires using some ADAT preamps in the orchestra pit.  So assuming those are not remote control, you then have less control and you're saving about $900.

The most expensive MOTU set up is about $2K more then the TIO set up and it has the same number of inputs with the only advantage being that you could distribute the analog line level I/O around more flexibility. 

This also assumed use DVS or VIA on a sound playback computer, where as the MOTU system has at least one AVB interface just so I could get playback audio onto the AVB network.  That's actually a significant part of what is making MOTU systems more expensive.  I'm not going to buy up Macs and use Mac software for that, just so I could save on buying an AVB interface.  But it's something to consider if you use Macs when looking at the pricing.

Anyway I put together this attached excel sheet that sort of breaks it all down.

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crazysubguy

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Re: Did some math and estimating
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2018, 08:41:26 PM »

Is the AVB pricing street or list?  I have bought several TIOs from Sweetwater for approx. $840.  Dante card is somewhere around there as well.  Two Netgear GS108Tv2 ($65) on the mixer side and 2 Ubiquiti Edgerouter X ($49) for the TIOs to plug into.  Needed the Edgerouter for the DHCP server.  I couldn't stomach hundreds of $$s for cables, so bought a 1000ft role of shielded CAT 6a and made my own.  I figured the Dante components all have primary and secondary connections, so why not use them?
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RBIngraham

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Re: Did some math and estimating
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2018, 10:15:57 PM »

All the pricing is right off the Sweetwater web site, some rounding up to nearest hundred bucks. 

The switch for Dante is a typical SG300 Cisco.  Yeah I'm sure you can go cheaper but it's a well known robust piece.  If I'm dropping 4 or 5 grand I see little point in saving a few bucks on the switch that makes it all work.  Yeah you can daisy chain but how much does that really save and I don't want 1 cable able to take down all or more than 1 unit of my I/O if I can help it.  Plus I need to run a 2nd playback computer on the network.  You can't daisy chain that very well.  Spend the money, cry once.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2018, 10:18:12 PM by Richard B. Ingraham »
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admin

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Re: Did some math and estimating
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2018, 12:00:09 AM »

Yep, the Dante card seems to be the way to go.  Plus, you get total expandability up to 128 channels.

It looks like you used list prices for stuff.  Good news is that you can get it cheaper!

Bob
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RBIngraham

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Re: Did some math and estimating
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2018, 06:20:00 AM »

Nope.  As I said, these were current pricing shown on Sweetwater 's web site.  Now I'm sure those are MAPP prices, but it's not list.  By the time you buy some cables and all the little pieces parts it's going to cost at least this no matter how good of a price you get. 

Trust me I deal with pricing systems every day.  It's even more fun to figure out installation costs.  :-)
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RBIngraham

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Re: Did some math and estimating
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2018, 09:32:16 AM »

Is the AVB pricing street or list?  I have bought several TIOs from Sweetwater for approx. $840.  Dante card is somewhere around there as well.  Two Netgear GS108Tv2 ($65) on the mixer side and 2 Ubiquiti Edgerouter X ($49) for the TIOs to plug into.  Needed the Edgerouter for the DHCP server.  I couldn't stomach hundreds of $$s for cables, so bought a 1000ft role of shielded CAT 6a and made my own.  I figured the Dante components all have primary and secondary connections, so why not use them?

I see what you're saying now.  You're using both the primary and secondary ports for redundancy.  And that makes sense.  I just rather buy a decent Cisco switch rather than cut corners for a few bucks and then you don't need a router just to do DHCP, it's all built into the one switch.

I agree with buying cable in bulk.  That's a pretty common way to go for anyone with the skills to assemble them.
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crazysubguy

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Re: Did some math and estimating
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2018, 09:27:03 PM »


I see what you're saying now.  You're using both the primary and secondary ports for redundancy.  And that makes sense.  I just rather buy a decent Cisco switch rather than cut corners for a few bucks and then you don't need a router just to do DHCP, it's all built into the one switch.

I have three computers (1 host and 2 GUI) and a TIO at the mix location, and 3 TIOs on stage.  Depending on what location I am at, there is normally 100 to 150 ft between the two locations.  In the past, using X32 equipment with no redundancy (i.e. one ethernet cable from stage to mixer), I have had sound drop out in the middle of a performance.  With Dante redundacy, I have had zero dropouts. Using the four switches, I am able to have both redundancy and minimize the cables running from stage to mixer (2 150ft cables). 

I chose the particular switch models because people on different forums discussing Dante pointed them out as being very stable.  The Ubiquiti Edgerouter X only has 5 ports, so I will probably need to step up to something like the Cisco SG300-10pp...especially if I add in any of the new Dante AVIO devices that use POE.

I have wondered if switches with 10G backbone would help any with latency, but they are kind of expensive. I'm not sure the difference in latency between just two switches would be worth the added cost.

I just looked up the Cisco SG300-10pp on Amazon and it seems to have a pretty impressive list of features, especially for the price.

In one of your other posts, you mentioned using Dante VIA for computer playback; I do the same.  However, I missed the piece about how it has to "phone home" every month or so to stay activated.  Since I keep the system disconnected from the internet, I had to do an emergency internet registration to continue using it.
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RBIngraham

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Re: Did some math and estimating
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2018, 01:19:22 PM »

Well that sucks.  Having to use Via in a show becomes a big pain in the ass then. 

There is something in the FAQ for Via about contacting sales staff at Audinate if you need to use it on a computer not connected to the internet.  Hopefully there is a work around.  Although DVS will do what I need most days, so over all it's probably not that big of an issue. 
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gilnavarro

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Re: Did some math and estimating
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2018, 07:59:33 PM »

What about Dante Virtual Soundcard? Is cheap
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mattseymour

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Re: Did some math and estimating
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2018, 05:11:36 AM »

DVS is great but ASIO only so if your playback software can use an asio interface then DVS will do the job nicely but if not then no. Of course if you're in mac land you can do helpful things with coreaudio.

Regarding system latency and switches, 10Gbit is the same latency as 1Gbit ethernet so there's no benefit in having 10Gb links unless you're at risk of saturating the links.
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gilnavarro

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Re: Did some math and estimating
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2018, 08:29:38 AM »

I thought DVS letís you connect into the Dante world without dedicated hardware? Pretty sure Iíve used it with Live Professior on pc to make a native plugin server. I usually use Mac for that though, still through DVS
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RBIngraham

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Re: Did some math and estimating
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2018, 09:46:09 AM »

DVS does work well and most software one wants to use will support ASIO drivers.  Via does add some helpful features, primarily it allows computer to computer Dante communication with no Dante hardware present (which isn't that useful in this application but helpful in others) and it allows you to use audio interface I/O connected to the computer and get that onto the Dante network.  This can be useful for utility inputs and other things where you just need a couple more I/O but low latency isn't a concern.  So it's great for Voice of God, talkback and one school I work with a lot uses rehearsal tracks rather than a rehearsal pianist.  So it would give you a place to plug that sort of stuff into the system without having to chew up valuable and more expensive I/O. 

Lastly, my other point is that AVB doesn't really have anything like DVS or Via unless you're on a Mac.  The Mac OS has native support for AVB, Windows (I would argue stupidly) does not.  There is a virtual driver for windows but it's ridiculously priced.  Cost more than a hardware interface.  So in my cost analysis here, I've had to add extra audio interfaces to the system to allow that playback/effects computer to get onto the AVB network.  This one missing piece in the AVB on Windows alone is making Dante more cost effective.  If there were an affordable virtual driver for AVB, it would be more affordable than Dante.
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kruntz

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Re: Did some math and estimating
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2018, 09:53:05 AM »

DVS also has WDM support (on Windows only).
You can't have ASIO and WDM at the same time on different channels, though.
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RBIngraham

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Re: Did some math and estimating
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2018, 03:35:50 PM »

Just to beat this horse completely dead, I've worked up some more system configurations.  As much as I would rather go down the Dante path, I can go down the MOTU AVB path more economically at first and then gradually ramp up.  It will allow me to reuse some existing digital snake equipment to get to an orchestra pit until I can afford to buy all the MOTU AVB units. 

With the Yamaha TIO set up I pretty much have to just dive in for all $5K or so worth of gear or nothing at all.  Yeah I could buy it piece by piece but I wouldn't be able to use it for most of my shows until I get almost all the pieces. 

In the end for about $1K more for the MOTU I'll end up with much more ideal I/O counts where I need them in a typical space for large musical theatre.  It also means that all the interface boxes could be used as stand alone audio interface and/or digital mixers if I need that.  And I could use the built in reverb and other effects processing that is in the box if I find it useful.  And I will end up with almost as many analog I/O as (4) TIO 1608 units (with fewer wasted I/O) plus more digital I/O for a total of 94 x 62 physical channels of I/O, if I ever really need that.  And it will be easier to split the gear into smaller packages for lighter shows and be able to support multiple simultaneous shows. It does mean using some ADAT Optical I/O conversion at first until I can buy all the pieces I need, which is a bummer (I'm really done with ADAT Optical) but eventually I could ditch that.

I don't think it's probably the best solution for the majority of AMP or software mixing users (if there even is such a thing as a "typical" user).  But assuming they are stable as audio interfaces I think this is a better investment for me.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 03:44:04 PM by Richard B. Ingraham »
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gilnavarro

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Re: Did some math and estimating
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2018, 12:09:41 PM »

Hey Richard, I have a 624 Iím not using right now. Could loan it to you for a few weeks if you want to run some tests
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